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Kellye, the true crime enthusiast, and Kyler, her willing partner, delve into intriguing cases from Central & Northeastern Louisiana.
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Echoes of Evil in Catahoula - Ponthieux/Adams - Part 3 of 4
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As we draw closer to closing the curtains on the spine-tingling saga that is "Echoes of Evil," prepare for a 2 part finale that pierces the veil of the human psyche. The courtroom drama unfolds with a cast of characters tangled in a web of deceit and violence, as we dissect the trial of Debbie and her chilling connection to Lee John. Amidst the legal labyrinth, we revisit Debbie's complex past, her string of dysfunctional marriages, and the financial desperation that may have set the stage for a heart-wrenching family tragedy.
This episode isn't just about cold facts; it's a deep dive into the darkest corners of familial bonds and betrayal. You'll be captivated by a bitter custody dispute and a shotgun with a tale all its own. The narrative takes you through the twisted dynamics that culminate in a potential murder, probing the enigmatic relationship between Debbie and Lee John, whose volatile union was marred by substance abuse and law enforcement encounters.
Hear firsthand the harrowing testimonies and explosive revelations from Tammy Lemon, a crucial witness whose account could either be a key to the truth or a pawn in a game of legal chess. The trial reaches its climax with an analysis of the trial's key evidence, raising the specter of a left-handed assailant. As we express our sincere thanks for your unwavering engagement and hint at future content that will explore new riveting stories, we invite you to join us for this the 3rd installment of "Echoes of Evil”.
This has been an elfaudio production.
Thanks for listening & Take care out there!
All🎶created by: Uncle Sawyer
Hey guys, welcome back. This is Kelly and I'm gonna give you a quick recap of parts 1 and 2. However, if you haven't listened to parts 1 and 2, what are you doing? Don't get me wrong. Thank you for coming. I'm glad you're here, but this is the wrong place to start. So, if this is where you have been directed, go back two episodes to episode 16. Part 1, echoes of Evil. Start there and then come back. All right, cool.
Speaker 1:And for everybody else that has been waiting so, so, so patiently for the end of this three-part series, thank you so much for being patient with me. It has been a ringer of a couple weeks. We traveled to Florida Our youngest has four to five teeth coming in all at the same time and traveling on top of that and the weather being crazy back and forth. It's just it's. It's been a lot. It's been a lot. Top that off with me, not the really double checking before we left and making sure we had everything. Everybody else got all of their things here, minus like a sweater and a blanket, but all the important stuff I just. I tend to space when it comes to my own thing. So my laptop charger is currently in route back to me the laptop that I use solely to produce this entire podcast, produce, edit all of it. So, anyway, that that charger's coming, it's incoming and I have made due to be able to get the rest of this and edit it and done for everybody so that I could be done, so that I could actually try to take a deep breath, because I now know and recall when we first started this podcast why I was pretty dedicated to the bi-weekly because doing all of this by yourself is a lot. I love it. It is I literally when I tell people why I do this. It's, it's my hobby, this is my fun, this is my happy, this is what I get to do for me. I enjoy this and what? What makes it even better is when I do get good, positive feedback from everybody out there listening and everybody who comes back and listens again the next week or the next episode. It just makes my heart happy that something that makes me happy can also bring some kind of entertainment or fulfillment or knowledge to anyone else on the planet. Wonderful. So I'm gonna I'm gonna stop rambling now and real quick recap.
Speaker 1:First episode went over the crimes we lost Miss Annie Bell, miss Eileen and Mr John Butbozo. We went over last episode in the trial of Lee John, who was the boyfriend of Debbie, who was after the murders occurred, then led the police on a man hunt for a little over 22 hours and then fully confessed everything but said he did it because Debbie basically said this is how I'll be happy is if everybody else is dead. And he confessed all of that pretty sketchy on the details Didn't line up correctly. Miss Annie Bell had 12 stabs, slice knife wounds, eileen had 23. That's right, so 23 times. And then, of course, bozo he had one gunshot wound to the base of his skull. And then, after Lee John and Debbie, both were arrested Debbie being the eldest daughter of Annie Bell and sister to Eileen, ex-wife and, more recently, brother-in-law or sister-in-law to Bozo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, lee John is indicted and Debbie is pretermitted, which I told you all about last episode, which means basically there was a hung jury. They couldn't decide if she was or wasn't. It was, if it is a true bill, not a true bill. So basically they said we'll just wait until something else happens, if the DA brings it back, whatever. So after about 190 days she gets released and then Lee John goes to trial at the end of 2013.
Speaker 1:His trial starts in December and after I think it's a four or five day trial, he is found guilty. He is sentenced to three consecutive life without parole sentences and on appeal the next year. He argues that they sentenced him without allowing for the cooldown period, which you know. They said there's no merit there because your attorney said go ahead. And the other one was the consecutive life sentences because they argued that it was cruel and unusual punishment and all of those reasons that they appealed on. That all marked out the Conviction and sentencing was affirmed.
Speaker 1:However, they did want to make sure and I think at some point he comes back because the jury they were unanimous guilty first degree on Eileen and bozo, but it was 11 to one of this panel of ten women and two men juries, jurists. They 11 to one on any bail. So even then, like originally, there was still kind of like a this one factor and we'll get more into that this episode. So when I left you then was in December of 2014. So we are gonna roll it back. Let's take the time machine head back to February, february 28th of 2014. That's what we'll get started. Welcome to episode 18, part 3 echoes of evil. On today's episode of sin and welcome to episode 18. I'm Kelly.
Speaker 1:I'm kind of and he's back guys. Of course he's gonna skip out on the middle, all the hard work, and then just come back in and be like, hey, I'm fabulous.
Speaker 2:I started it, I'm finishing it.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm sorry, the middle isn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. So we got the recap at the beginning. You got my ever-loving praise and affection for sticking with me and be patient for this last part here. I'm gonna try to keep it under. We should be able to get through pretty quick though, because it's gonna be like damn near carbon coffee of the trial. Basically, before we get back in. Just like part two started, I'm going to start this one with the background, so we're gonna talk specifically about Debbie.
Speaker 1:Debbie Menon Adams was born February 24th 1955. She was the eldest of seven children to Annie Bell and Otto Adams. He passed away, I think about eight years before the 2012 murders, and this is where it kind of goes dark. It was easy to a point with Lee John because he had a criminal record, so I could pretty well trace every year of his life from the time he turned 18, because there was a criminal record from the time it was 18.
Speaker 1:So with Debbie, though I Don't have a work history, I couldn't get in touch with any other family to be able to See what she did like hobbies, what was she good at? How did she grow up, so home life, how she grew up, if she was the motherly hyn type, or if she always had a deep-seated Jealousy, frustration, irritation, being the eldest or what I don't know. I really don't know. Um, what I do know is very limited and that is from in her history asshole. So marriage is divorces, criminal record, which actually didn't start, I think it was like in 2000, um. So I mean, like I don't have a lot what I do have and I kept looking because I Couldn't help but keep digging, which I think is a part of my problem.
Speaker 2:Anyway, just keep dig, just keep digging.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we know that Debbie and Bozo used to be married, um, but did you know? They were married for less than a year May, oh five. To November, oh five. Legally it was filed in September. Wow, now, why the reason? I say that is because, remember, how I mentioned earlier, in 2000, in July of 2000 they were living in Concordia Parish. Now, now Debbie filed a Like a property retrieval thing. A civil was a civil motion, civil suit to be able to into the property that her and Bozo had lived in for the past five years. I think is what she said in the in the filing anyway. So they had been living together, but he kicked her out and and he didn't let her get her new first up and she was basically using a civil petition to be able to go back into the property and get her stuff back. And, of course, true to form, there was an entire paragraph just about the dog.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, that was the only thing she called the police about, alright, alright so that was the other thing I couldn't find for sure.
Speaker 1:I don't think she ever had any kids. I don't think she had any of her own children, so maybe that was why she got so attached to the dang dogs.
Speaker 2:I mean, like dogs are awesome and then maybe people are the reason.
Speaker 1:Maybe we'll get into that. Okay, so Didn't get married to Bozo until oh five. They had lived together for years and years. I think they met in high school, from what I understand just from this little bit I could gather from the Interrogation Interview they did with her. Now they got married in May of 2005,. Right, debbie filed the petition for divorce and At the end of March March 31st, oh six it was officially granted in September of oh six. So they actually went through divorce proceedings. It looks like longer than they were married. Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the divorce started Basically the beginning of April and it went through the end of September, so five whole months and then they were legally separated in November of the year before. They'd only been married since May. And it worked out and, from what you can understand, bozo Worked either offshore or on land rigs. He did something with the oil field or something along those lines because he made Damn good money, and then I'll tell you why. I know that and this is gonna be like a little extra, because there wouldn't hold it. I could find on Eileen and Bozo either, really, except for the court record stuff and Interesting find on that one. So stay tuned. The divorce between Bozo and Debbie was granted by September 25th of oh six. Bozo and Eileen were married by the just as a piece on January 30th 2007.
Speaker 2:So just over a year oh.
Speaker 1:Not a year, baby. That was September to January.
Speaker 2:Okay, I thought you said January 2006 and then January 2007.
Speaker 1:January 2007,. But it was September, oh six.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So they were, yeah, so four months after they were Officially divorced, but they had been legally separated since November of the year before long story short, he married Eileen January into January now.
Speaker 1:That was in 2007. Right according to the civil records in Concordia Parish, bozo and Eileen were also divorced. September 25th of 2006, bozo and Eileen got married January 30th 2007 about four months later. Okay, bozo filed for divorce in Concordia Parish Initially on February 2nd of 2009, so less than two years later. But that one just kind of hung out and didn't do anything. They didn't have any kind of special stuff. It was literally just like almost like a dissolution and not the divorce. It was just like let her take this, I'll take this and we'll be done and.
Speaker 1:Then nothing happened until January 19th of 2011. So things must have been okay for a couple years and Then I'll help her lose. When he filed again in that January of 2011, it came with a protective order because he was alleging abuse, domestic abuse, and he was a fear for his life. So they go back and forth. Well, that's what I'm saying, like the amount of money that they're talking about. They've got a list of guns that was Well, like basically one page of our entire three-ring binder notebook, but that's not.
Speaker 1:But, crazy enough, on that list, the only one that they had a record of and a receipt for to be able to get from the house to be able to save, was marital property or not marital property. Was Annie Bell shotgun, the same shotgun that was used to take off the top of Bozo's head a year after their divorce was final. Yeah, the rivington shotgun, or so we have been made to believe anyway. So Bozo and I lean. The divorce in March of 2011 is finalized the very end of March. So technically they weren't married either. So it's just a whole bunch of divorce fools all living. Debbie's ex-husband, ex-brother-in-law, was living out with her sister ex-sister and sisters, ex-husband, ex-brother-in-law.
Speaker 1:At which it. Honestly it made more sense because I found a 911 call and we talked a little bit about this in part two. But the 911 call that I lean made about the two Lee John, senior and junior cousin orgas. When she called the 911 operator she identified herself as Her second husband's, our first husband's name, last name, fields, scott fields y'all might remember that name. That is also the same person and Property and home where Debbie ran the night of these murders. So she ran up the road to Scott fields house. Who was her? Eileen, that was her ex-husband. Eileen's ex-husband Lived up the road where Debbie went to call 911. For no, I never actually.
Speaker 2:Yes, I. She ran to her own ex-husband.
Speaker 1:No she ran to her sister's ex-husband's house. They've been sharing Shit. So the reason that I can be so sure about this is because Scott fields is mentioned to be handicapped. I think he got to an accident or something and so he's permanently handicapped. And when she called 911, she be I lean specifically says Send the cops quick because Lee is here trying to jump on me and my handicapped husband. If we're when I can tell they hadn't got remarried, because she was, quote-unquote, living with Bozo out in the shed, right, let me make it a little bit more sense for you.
Speaker 1:In In 2005, okay, remember back when he was married to Debbie? Yeah, which Bozo? Bozo is married to Debbie in 05 for like seven months. But Just after they got married in July, bozo took out alone and, because they were married, became marital property, marital debt. Then they got divorced, okay. Then he remarries the sister or they need Mary's, the Eileen, whatever and she signs on to this loan To keep it, whatever you know. So now he has married a divorced one who was a part of the initial loan, married the sis, married the sister, got her to sign on in some form.
Speaker 1:So in February of 2012, a mere six months Before Bozo, eileen and Annie Bella murdered. They receive a civil motion. All three Debbie, eileen and Bozo all three listed. They have a motion to pay Back this loan, whether it be in property or however else. They're going to get it. They're gonna get their money back.
Speaker 1:This was a Zay. Remember how much it said that long was. It was upwards of like 37,000 dollars, which at the time was not too big a deal. Remember I told you he had awful money, but something went bad. I don't know what it was. I don't have any clue. I didn't get that kind of inside. Maybe, maybe, possibly, but he had, you know, the different properties and different things.
Speaker 1:But when they filed that petition on all three of them in 2012, that February, that, in my best estimation, was the hard times that Bozo and I, lee, had fallen on, which caused them to move in with Annie, and At the time that they were murdered, all three of them were actually going through bankruptcy Claims to be able to get rid of this debt you want to talk about. I thought we were in a rice pressure cooker. I Thought it was bad. I didn't know. Can you imagine had not only has your younger sister taken your husband, but now they're telling you that you still got to pay this dad and he's married to your little sister and they don't got divorced so that they can try to get bankrupt, see, and that's well.
Speaker 1:That's what I honestly believe that whole thing was. I think they got divorced because that would be the best way to try to financially and keep there. I think they were trying to keep I lean and stuff separate from bozos, but I don't know. I that's literally all guessing and estimation. Don't take any of that to any kind of bank because nobody will cash that check, because it's what it looked like to me. So that's what I found when I went to go. Literally all I was going to do is to check the divorce records, that's it anytime she starts with literally, there's gonna be an explanation.
Speaker 1:So that's what.
Speaker 2:I got.
Speaker 1:That's where I'm at. So we're. Initially I didn't have like I could see the resentment, like I could see, but it really had been so many years ago. And there you know, you think you get over. You, yeah, you get a little drunk again in your feelings, you get upset about it again, but not enough to kill somebody. Right not to keep on and keep on. Now you throw money on top of that, you throw stress of the money on top of that and you throw the possibility of not getting paid by the government to take care of your mama now, because you're gonna have to claim bankruptcy. Yeah, yeah, there is no mention of any of this shit and any of the court records. Just so everybody is aware. This is literally I, just this is open to the public civil documents.
Speaker 1:But in my mind money weighs heavier on the trifecta of why I'm gonna kill you jealousy money especially when they've already been living with I.
Speaker 1:It's been since 2007, yeah, so they've been Well and they should have exactly, and that's my whole thing is like this was a catalyst and a half Right at the beginning, 2012, that blindsided Debbie, who thought she was done with all of this shit with bozo, and then to come back and now that they're broke that she's gonna have to Like assume this dead in the same way that they do, and she's done left this mother had for her and he's done left her for her Younger sister. Are you kidding?
Speaker 1:I can see that not going over well not even a little bit, so, to say the least, say the very least. So that was done. It's the beginning of 2012, in February of 2012, so everybody is obviously now I understand where everybody's always. Yeah, yeah, and yin yin yin, I believe, is how Lee John put it yin yin yin. From what from what I can tell when. Okay, so Debbie went from Debbie minion Adams to white, then to Ellard and then back to Adams.
Speaker 2:Man imagine what she's after. Right on her.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you, I'm telling you.
Speaker 2:Here.
Speaker 1:I already can't remember so I couldn't find any information about the first guy. I have no idea who that was. I know his last name was white. That's it, haha, because that was initially what I went to Concordia for to see if she'd married. She didn't marry him in Concordia, so no idea who her first husband was. Ellard bozo was her second husband. Now, from what I can understand if from her criminal history I have theft in 99, marijuana possession in paraphernalia in 2000 and Nothing else really until 2009, where she played guilty to a misdemeanor driving while intoxicated and Somewhere in the early odds her and bozo actually got arrested for illegal fishing. So anyway, in Early odds, the legal fishing. 2009, the DWI she played guilty to, and then again in 2012, early 2012, she played guilty to reckless operation and I think the other one was a possession schedule for which was like a Xanax, but she had a prescription, so they just missed that one still hate the scheduling.
Speaker 1:Those Feel like the higher ones should be the higher numbers, instead of schedule one being the worst now that we got, literally the only background that I have is that the civil stuff marriages and divorces and then the criminal history All the way up to 2012 when she played for reckless operation. Now, if we start back into the actual story of what happened leading up to 2012, in 2009, ish, 2008, 2009 she started staying with her mother and she, in about 2010 ish again, she wasn't really clear on her dates she started getting paid about $200 a week as her mom's caretaker and that was through this day, so she was getting that Straight to her. Basically, just to Be with her mom like a child would be. So and for you house and for you all the other stuff around. The same time, within the year of her moving in with her mother, she was invited to a wedding and that room sprite happened to be Lee John Pantie a Punch, a punch, a punch, a punch, a punch a person.
Speaker 2:Because we had a. We had a few of my lords.
Speaker 1:No, they just say we see, we see, literally tell me, I told you how to say that I can really put in their parche, okay. So anyway, lee John Jr he Was also at the wedding because his sister was the one getting married. So that's where Debbie and Lee John found their faithful tie and apparently moved in and immediately started living together and immediately started having freaking issues. So Nobody, from what I could tell, like Lee John I think I mentioned that last episode Debbie had from what it seems to me, like you meet some random guy at a wedding and then move him into your mama's house, okay, and then literally almost immediately you guys start like getting in trouble, like he starts getting Disturbing the peas, not drunk and disorderly, but he just they call the, they call the police a lot because He'd get to drink in.
Speaker 1:And I believe Debbie in her interview even said I told them to stay off the whiskey but he doesn't listen Because the whiskey just makes him mean. So In the two years, two, three years that they were living together, they had the cops called on him like maybe four times. He had at least two, three different arrests For being either drunk in public, drunk in a car, driving intoxicated, reckless operation, disturbing the peace.
Speaker 2:Is like when you, when you think about it, four times doesn't sound like a whole lot of times to have the cops called on you, but think about y'all's life. How many times have you had the cops called on you?
Speaker 1:This was in two years twice the 2012 schedule for and careless operation that she got. She was with hey John. He also got picked up. I think he was already on probation at that point. So, long story short, they were firing gasoline that heat up the pressure cooker. That turned into a time bomb.
Speaker 2:And then the other sister was the oil, and then the mom was the water.
Speaker 1:Right, the water, the water that made the fucking oil fire worse. Nobody had any flower and then they toss that whole shit could bootle into a volcano that was also sitting off fault line, so it made it earth. I'm telling you, hmm, bad idea. All of this is a bad idea. The family didn't like it. They didn't like the fact that Debbie didn't do anything about Lee John being there and acting up fucking fool. Didn't like the fact that Lee John Didn't do anything. Really like, I think. Well, according to his interview with police, with it he talked about helping out around the house, but I don't really know how far that went. If you get so drunk and belligerent that you can't remember what you took, how much you drank or who was there, how long you were, you know like.
Speaker 2:I can't see how helpful.
Speaker 1:But I do know that he got a job because he was Ordered to buy his probation, to have a job within 30 days or he would go to jail. So he did get a job. We're gonna the pecan orchard and we talked about that. And I know we talked about that because he was working at the pecan orchard when he actually got Sinched up for this one. No idea about our childhood. No idea if this was Harvard resentment from early times or if there was something with her mother from early times.
Speaker 2:Either way there's no resentment with early times. It's a decent whiskey.
Speaker 1:We get all the way to 2009. She moves in with mom, starts getting paid to take care of her, moves in Lee John and then, according to what I found and my best guess don't know if it's for sure, but the Information that I got that I did get from court records was Bozo and Eileen falling on hard times and I think they said that in a couple of the articles as well but they fell in hard times moved in with Annie Bell, which stirred more shit with Debbie because at this point She'd have to go bankrupt. The reason for the bankruptcy is her bastard ex has been, who left her for her younger sister, who are now moving into the property Because they're going bankrupt too.
Speaker 1:Oh and, by the way, they ain't even married no more, because they trying to not have to go bankrupt and they're all mad at her because she's got this guy that gets really drunk and really rowdy and they have to call the cops on him because he's unstable. And I have to tend to agree because his criminal history Speaks volumes to how he acts when he drinks, when he's altered and it was straight in the footsteps pretty much of his father. I mean, he learned from his dad to get drunk and be dumb and go to jail, like that's what's what his dad did, that's what he did, but as far as I can tell, his dad never killed anybody.
Speaker 1:Or says just better than a cat but it also would make sense why he latched on so tight to Debbie, because she was Lee. John was born in 70, debbie was born in 55. That's still 15 years difference. So Mommy complex Because I can't find anything about his mama.
Speaker 2:So I don't know that, or could just be the she's gonna take care of me, like my name, same same same. Yeah, she's gonna take you.
Speaker 1:I can latch on to this one. She's got a house I can live in. Mama Annie bill, she's gonna let me live here and drink what I want and use cars when I want. Debbie likes to drink and be dumb too, and she likes to complain about everybody else's fault and misery loves some company. So that takes us up to the point where they're living together. Things are heated and Contemptuous, tempestuous.
Speaker 2:Can tankerous?
Speaker 1:all of the us's Except us, and then I us us no. So, debbie, like I said, she was arrested initially for obstruction because once they realized that she knew what the fuck it happened, but she just, you know, didn't say anything in any of the cops before they rolled up in the house with a guy who might have had a shotgun, didn't say anything. So that's why they arrested her initially. Well, no, louisiana statute and Louisiana criminal procedure only allows you to stay in jail Without being Formally indicted, whether that be by a bill of information or by a grand jury. You only have 90 days if you're incarcerated. I think it's 180. I think it no, it would be 120, I'd have to look double check, but I know it's 90 if you're incarcerated. If you don't get a bill of indictment and get served with, you have to be in court.
Speaker 1:Formal Hand you something that says this is what we're charging you with and on this date you committed this act, which was against this statute. If you don't get that by the 90th day, you file a 701 motion, which a 701 means I get out of jail, you can't charge me money. Hmm, basically, a 701 says you didn't do what you're supposed to do within the time frame parameters that you were supposed to do it, and I get out of jail, no matter how hot my bond is, because I don't know I'm pretty sure I mentioned this, but they're bonds once. They were both charged officially with first-degree murder. We're ten million dollars Ten million they wouldn't get now.
Speaker 1:So Debbie spends her time, they get the grand jury pulled together, but the member of the grand jury didn't, true, bill her. So her attorney, mr Robert Clark, he filed this 701 and she was Bond obligation released of her own recognizance, ror Ro, and she went back to live in the same house where her three family members were brutally murdered interesting, yeah, and Continue to live her life until, you know, the end of 2013, when she was called to testify in Lee John's trial, which she did barely, but I thought. I still find it hilarious, though, that she answered more of the district attorney's questions than she did to the defenses. The questions, hmm, yeah, well, if you think about it, actually makes sense, because the defense was Debbie did it right. It was all Debbie she did. She was the one who was angry. She had the result and in the reasons, lee John loved them and didn't have any reason to kill them, so she put the fifth on most of them and I talked about that last episode because it was and her attorney was right there with her, mr Robert Clark.
Speaker 1:She gets off the stand into December, goes on about her life. Now I do want to mention again that she was in jail for over three months. According to the 701 motion, she was released on February 5th of 2013 now, so there was about five months. I was about five months from February to December. She's still living in 975 Mody Road. In December she could have testifies for the defense, but the only witness called for the defense and then he is found guilty of all three 11 to 1 for Annabelle, but still all three, because at that point we didn't need unanimous still counts Until until February 28 of 14, like I said, and now we're back to the beginning of this episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amazing. The DA apparently resubmitted their case to the grand jury against Debbie Minion Adams, white alert Adams, and this time they got a true pill. So they got their fancy snazzy arrest warrants rolled out to 975. Moody again.
Speaker 2:No prediction this time.
Speaker 1:March 18th of 2014, they arrested her, took her in. She got a pretty new mugshot which I actually will have posted on our new website. Hey.
Speaker 1:Sin long podcast calm and It'll be in the blog section. I'll have a couple pictures down there, miss Annie, of Eileen and a couple the two different ones of Debbie. You're very interesting. You can tell that the time from 2012 to 2014 was not good to her. I'm just saying her pictures from 2012 and 2014 are vastly starkly different and I'll show you. You'll be able to. You'll agree with me. So. But here's the thing, here's the catch. You know how she got 701 on this first-degree murder charges. They didn't charge her with. This is the same thing they were arresting her for, so they couldn't set a new bond. So she was arrested, booked for those charges and then released of her own recognizance because her bond had already been Released or reduced or taken out. Yeah, and they can't do it twice for the same stuff. So she goes in, gets finger printed again.
Speaker 2:That was a devil, whole double jeopardy thing kind of.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so you can't have a bond set on something. Can't you see that you've already had a bond? Set on before that. You've already been released for those obligations. Yeah, yeah, we don't simplify.
Speaker 2:you can't do the same shit twice you can't do the same shit twice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she gets released, but you know that she does it. She comes back and actually goes trial. She didn't take off or nothing like she had any better to help her. Anyway, at that point, from what I understand her Everybody that was her quote, unquote family had completely abandoned her and that's actually something that she said, her words she ain't got no family, no more. Hmm, that's what she said at trial of Lee John. I don't have any brothers or sisters. They're all dead to me. I don't think she said they're dead to me, but she did say they don't have any siblings. Yeah, because they basically all turn the back on her because they believed Boyd. Lee John said he made the most sense, just like all of the rest of her story don't make no sense. So fun part about Debbie story. There her trial went basically the same, okay, but I bet you're wondering how did they get the grand jury to true bill when they couldn't get under true? But before what happened?
Speaker 2:what change they lost? One, tell me.
Speaker 1:No, sir, I'll tell you what change we love a snitch at the same time that we don't believe a snitch. However, I I will tell you.
Speaker 2:There are conditions and occasions for me to believe a snitch.
Speaker 1:Alright, so we don't love a snitch. Initially, initially you're not gonna want to like a snitch, but then you.
Speaker 2:That's the only snitch, I believe is the one that doesn't get you from it. Bingo.
Speaker 1:Bingo, because she tried. She tried to use this for her personal gain. Initially she wrote letters to the DA, she wrote letters to the judge, she wrote letters to everybody who would freaking listen, because she was trying to get out of jail Rightfully I mean, like nobody wants to really be in there unless I mean some people just do. But if you have information that you know is good, you want to try to use that to your advantage, which is why snitches are so hard to put on the stand and be credible.
Speaker 2:Doesn't have to get in time off or anything, because at least trying to Right it's, you gotta try.
Speaker 1:Right. But when they come up and they interview her and they tell her look, we'll listen to you, but we can't give you anything, we can't make any deals, we have no control over what time you're serving, and she says, okay, but that's fine. I still need to tell you this, right, because that's how bad is weighing on her. So Ms Tammy Lemon served some time with Ms Davy Adams at the Franklin Parish Women's Facility. I believe they should have bunk. I showed her, they showed her so and they get to talk in because, like one does, yes, it's not a good idea, anyway. So, ms Tammy Lemon, she writes and says, hey, I got some information about a triple homicide down there by the lake. Come talk to me. So they go talk to her. Hey, hey, girl, it actually took them a little while.
Speaker 1:I think she wrote a letter back in like right after they. I guess she got sent over there at the end of 2012 before she got out in February, which would make sense, but I just mean like December-ish to January-ish. It was when she was up there with her and, according to Tammy, debbie loved talking about it, because Debbie liked to talk about the fact that she had lied to the cops that she had watched the whole thing. She was there when he stabbed her mama. She was there when he shot Bozo. She was there when he stabbed and attacked her sister.
Speaker 1:And she said that they deserved it. So I'm going to read you a couple of quotes from Ms Tammy Lemon's statement and there's a couple spots that are really important we're going to go through. Okay. So it actually looks like what did I say February? What did she get out of jail? She was released February-ish Wow. So the 701 got her out of jail, released on February 5th 2013. The interview with Tammy Lynn Lemon's took place on February 6th 2013. The day after Debbie was released. Wow, so the day after Debbie gets out of jail on a 701 motion, the day after they release her Bubba Roy rolls up to Ravell and talks to this.
Speaker 1:At the time she would have been 47, 48 year old Black lady by the name of Tammy Lynn Lemon and he says that he got a letter several weeks ago in regards to Debbie. So they were cellmates in Franklin Parish. So she said we had conversations and then details about the murder of her mother, sister, sister's fiance. So remember, keep in mind that she was a black lady.
Speaker 1:So, remember keep in mind because it's been a couple weeks now when the agent was arrested initially, when he and Debbie both got arrested, from the time of the murders they never spoke again. So outside of Debbie having some way of knowing or hearing from someone inside the jail who would have had to tell her what Lee John said and didn't say in his interview, because she wouldn't have had access to his discovery or anything and she was sequestered as a witness in his trial so she didn't hear his interviews. So even if she had, because the trial was after she got out of jail, regardless this, tammy Lynn Lemon has never met Lee John.
Speaker 1:She hasn't been out of jail since the murders occurred, so the information that she is giving to Bubba Roy at this point had to come from one place only.
Speaker 3:So that's another one of those things to keep in mind.
Speaker 1:That cooperates and makes her a little bit more credible than the usual snitch. So she says they had all got into an education. And then they left and her and Lee, debbie and Lee were sitting outside and Lee asked her what do you want me to do? And she said I want them all dead. So later that night, when Debbie and Lee were laying in the bed, lee got up. She thought he was going to the bathroom. Debbie got up to look for Lee and Lee was standing over Miss Annie Bell with a knife and then she watched him slash Miss Annie's throat and she said she ran out of the house and by the time she got like a little past the street or something. She heard a gunshot and Lee had done shot. Quote her sister's old man, which is her ex-fiance, ex-husband, had been shot.
Speaker 2:Ex-brother in the home or something I don't know. Nobody know.
Speaker 1:And in some kind of way her sister and Lee got into it. Lee was trying to shoot her sister but the sister had hit the gun and the gun went off like in the sky or something.
Speaker 2:Allegedly.
Speaker 1:And somewhere the bullet went off in the roof. That's when he stabbed her sister or shot her sister. She said she lied and told the detectives that she ran down the street, but she never did leave. She was there when all of it took place. She lied and quote that she had asked God to forgive her for lying. Didn't she call from Scott's house, scott Fields? Yeah, that was the one down the road.
Speaker 2:So she had to have run down the street she did eventually, but after they were already dead. Oh yeah, we knew that from the blood.
Speaker 1:And this is the important one here. This is the direct quote. She says quote it's like she influenced him to do this. She is Debbie Kimmins Lee, but she lied and said that he was on some type of pain pills, ex pills or some kind of pills. And she said she had ran to the neighbor's house or something that's kin to her or her brother-in-law or something, and used the phone and said that Lee had done killed. No, she didn't know who had done. Did killed her family. Yeah, I'm quote. Oh God, I thought you knew I was on him, not having that many issues.
Speaker 1:And then Tammy said that she told her and a few other girls that she had seen him do it and she claimed she ran. She wanted her sister. Okay, quote, she say she stayed there and was asking him why did he do mama? Why did he do mama? She wanted the sister and her ex-husband gone because her sister had started going with her ex-husband and at first it was only Debbie, her mama and Lee and she came for now it's his last name, just like everybody else, and first it was only them living there. But then the other two came because they fell on hard times and then Debbie thought that Miss Annie was acting funny towards her. This is what Lemon is saying. Debbie told her and Debbie said she felt like everything going on, her mother was talking against her for the other sister and Bozo. So they got into that altercation, right, yeah, debbie and her sister got into it. Then Lee and Debbie and Bozo they all get into it Said outside what are you going to do? And I'll dip?
Speaker 1:She said when the detectives were supposed to have been caught, Lee, they caught Lee with a pack of Marvorels which was for Debbie's sister and her old man. For Debbie to say that someone done told her that her sister had hit the gun out of her hands. That's impossible. He remembered Lee John did in his second interview because they found the bloody footprints on the sheets in the shed outside. He couldn't remember going in there, but they saw the bloody footprints so somebody had to have gone in there. The second interview, lee John says I went to go find a pack of cigarettes. He was found with cigarettes on them. There is no way that Debbie would have known he went back to get that pack of cigarettes if she had not watched him do it, because they never spoke again. She took off running after he killed Bozo and Eileen or supposedly, took off running.
Speaker 1:She wouldn't have seen him get the pack of cigarettes, she wouldn't have known that he had got them out of their shed, that he would have had that kind on him. I thought that was huge Because that information would not have been able to get to Debbie for her to be able to tell Tammy.
Speaker 2:And it's not his normal.
Speaker 1:That's right, it's the one that the other two smoke.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's rather interesting.
Speaker 1:She said she saw all of that. That was the one part that really stuck out to me. It was like, oh dang, he barely remembered that. How does she know that?
Speaker 2:She was watching with rapt attention and it interrupted her reverie.
Speaker 1:Of course Miss Lemon says that Debbie was happy that they were dead, except for her mama. She didn't really feel any remorse. She wasn't glad that her mama was dead but she was really glad that the other two were Right. She didn't show any kind of remorse. But you know and she seems I don't know I was respectful, respectable. She says, quote I don't want to lie on her. She didn't say she helped him. She said that she told him that she wanted him all gone, she wanted him dead. No, she didn't say she played a part in it, but she was in that house when that happened, unquote. So I just thought that was great. I don't want to lie on her, right? She? Didn't ever tell me what he did with the knife.
Speaker 1:She said when you caught him or something, y'all got the gun and she said that was her mom's shotgun and that was the marital shotgun. Well, that was the only one that was in Miss Annie's name that they could say was not for either of them. Okay, so it was a part of the marital property To have to be split.
Speaker 2:I think you would say backwards.
Speaker 1:I may have.
Speaker 2:Did that make sense?
Speaker 1:And then she talks about the other girls that were there. That may have heard it. There were pre-trial up there all together, whatever. She also makes a mention about the fact that Debbie was bragging about it in a movie he had come on TV and she said she didn't want to watch it. But Debbie said I want to see a lot of blood, a lot of killing. You know, like she was sticking the head or something.
Speaker 1:Then she kept talking about this other person, she would tell her more or whatever. So the other salemates that Miss Tammy was saying, go talk to them, they'll be able to tell you just as much or more. And then they talk about when she was actually in Franklin Parish, which she said it was like early December, through Christmas, and that was when she had cheered the sale, for there were like four or five of them in the sale. So yeah, but the biggest part of all that was the cigarette spray, because if you step by step that out, there is no way that Debbie would have known, because the police barely freaking knew, because Lee John barely fucking remembered.
Speaker 1:So that one was huge for me. So now we can pretty well assume Debbie was there, which I don't know if y'all are with me on this or not, but I had it. I was already assuming that. So, yeah, so that was the biggest chunk of evidence that changed, because they didn't have that before. And once they got that statement from Tammy and they also did a follow up investigation, because now that they knew that she was there the entire time, they got to thinking you know what?
Speaker 4:well, maybe maybe Lee John didn't kill all three of them.
Speaker 1:Let's look at this a little bit harder Now. If y'all remember I'm pretty sure I talked about it last episode it's unusual for one person to kill three people with three different weapons. Okay, the shotgun slash pocket knife can kind of be understandable. You only got three shots in a shotgun. You hit one, you miss the first one at Bozo, hit Bozo with the second and then the third. She knocks out of the way, hits the ceiling or the wall at the outside of the shed and then you're out of bullets. Okay, then you got to switch to whatever you got, right, or?
Speaker 2:One person with one and one person with the other.
Speaker 1:And then the butcher knife was just too big Red herring Not personal enough. Maybe, maybe. It was just the easiest thing to get to.
Speaker 2:I mean, it also sounds like the pocket knife was well taken care of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he always did that.
Speaker 2:Bozo knife is typically orange.
Speaker 1:We'll see if that's the thing. You don't have to have a sharp Bozo knife.
Speaker 2:The forensic pathologist you got two different knives in a shotgun and we were talking about the pocket knife in the shotgun. I didn't know we were talking about any, but whatsoever.
Speaker 1:I mean like at this point I was just talking about the fact that why didn't they use the butcher knife and continue to use the butcher knife, like I understand why he switched to the shotgun to go outside to kill Bozo and Eileen with the shotgun?
Speaker 2:Because the butcher knife was already covered in blood and they didn't want to alarm them.
Speaker 1:Well, I see that. I think that you're shooting into their shed. It's kind of alarming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but he got within steps of them before doing so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's an outrange weapon, but again, that begs the question. Listen, stabbing is extremely up close and personal, in the same way that strangulation is up close and personal. Strangulation is a little bit more so just because of the amount of time you have to spend, but killing someone with a knife is you don't get much more close. The only downside of that, though, again, is, like you said, the knife gets covered in blood, it gets slippery, it's easy to slip and cut your own hands, and this is another one of those times when I have issues. There are no pictures that I could find in any kind of discovery anywhere, of any None of the hands none of the body.
Speaker 1:None of the Dang it Bubba. I don't know. I just know that I the first thing I would have done, knowing well they didn't know at the time that it was a knife. But after they talked to him, give me your hands, turn your hands over, both up and down, even if you have washed your hands clean of whatever evidence may have been on there. If you've attacked somebody with a knife like that, 90% of the time you're going to cut yourself. No, if you have a good knife, no, baby Listen. Unless you have the ones with the block, with the grip, that will stop your hand from slipping.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which most, which makes most of the times that I've had.
Speaker 1:So you're talking about a knife right now has a block on it.
Speaker 2:This isn't.
Speaker 1:It does not. It's going to get slippery. Your hand's going to slip. Yep, absolutely. Yeah, I understand. I don't care about it, baby. You know how slippery your blood is If I'm going to attack me with a knife.
Speaker 3:It's not going to be this one. This is a razor blade. This is for work.
Speaker 1:Okay, my point is there are no pictures of their hands, not Debbie's, not Lee Jones.
Speaker 2:And I absolutely agree with that, that's.
Speaker 1:I was so late About as much as I was when I realized that they didn't test the fucking shotgun to see if it was the same fucking Right spin shells that was outside. Now I can kind of understand that, though Out in the country less spin shells, it could possibly have been from a different shotgun and you don't want to take the chance of giving the defense an opportunity to say See, I never even thought about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because if you find ex-culpecuri or inculpacuri, Because I've been thinking about Incur-ex Prosecutor so much as defense to where like you gotta test him.
Speaker 1:No, you don't, because that was one of Brad Bergett's points that he made so clear was we didn't need to test for that because we got DNA. Dna's better than that, right, right. But for me, if you're going to send it over to Mike Stelly and waste his time, at least let me let him tell me.
Speaker 2:Something I love, me and Mike Stelly, me too. Hustle Stelly, alright.
Speaker 1:And in one of these bonus episodes, we're going to talk about how much experience that man has. Oh my god.
Speaker 1:It's a lot like seven pages long. So anyway, point being, they go back and they do this. I guess they ask a forensic pathologist, which I believe was not the same one. I think they had a different. Let's see. No, no, no, mariana Esserman. So basically, the only major difference between Lee John's trial and Debbie's trial, which started on Grand Jury Trubill February 28th of 14th. She was arrested March 18th and then she got out because you know the double bond thing. And then jury selection for her trial it started on August 18th. Well, close, real real suspect, real close, alright. So, alright, jury selection takes forever.
Speaker 1:They tried to get a change of venue. They tried to get jury sequestered, which I think they did partially. They wanted to move to a different venue. They wanted to pull a jury pool from somewhere else. They wanted. He went above and beyond, above and beyond All of the rits and things. They sent off Supreme Court rits asking for Rits, crackers, different judgments for things that they I think it was Judge Leo at that time, leo Booth and they were trying to get his stuff reversed because he was denying. You know all the things. So, Still clear, no, no, no, no, no, you can't do that. Okay, we, alright. So Her jury selection began on August 18th 2014.
Speaker 1:Her trial only lasted one, two, three, four days total. Yeah, so, like I said, really the only thing that's different was Tammy Lemon and they had a codifin. That was just you, but you switch them, lee John was on trial last time Debbie tried, debbie testified, debbie's on trial, lee John's gonna testify.
Speaker 1:Now this is where it gets interesting, because His story kind of flip-flops which you can't really believe. Anything this man says anyway at this point he has done completely killed every single brain cell he may have had in the beginning and it is gone, and probably at least one person. At least one, and that's what he says at this point now, is that he accidentally Killed Bozo. He was just trying to hold him at gunpoint.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that one, but that's in bullshit.
Speaker 1:I don't believe that either, but that's okay, Because the more fun part he tries to write Debbie letters and they're not gonna let you do that.
Speaker 2:That's just dope.
Speaker 1:They don't let you do it, that's just dope. However, he thinks he's gonna be clever and he sends a letter to his Not his sister I believe Charlotte was the sister of Debbie and he sent a letter to her and asked her to send Debbie the letter from him. It was still unaccepted, it still didn't happen, but it's a little bit smarter though it looks really like you, baby. You try it, do you read, do your best. May the odds be ever in your favor.
Speaker 2:Dear Debbie. Hey, baby, I love and miss you so much. Let me store by sayings Jesus Christ Start by saying yeah, no, I'm reading it as I see it, yeah, okay. Let me store by saying I'm sorry about all this. I'm sorry that you were in jail, I'm sorry that I don't wrote you back sooner. I didn't thank you. I didn't thank you, won't it to hear from me, from me, baby? You know that I love you with all my heart and soul, foot, soul, with ever bridge. I tackwhat.
Speaker 1:With every breath I take Jesus. You just sped it up correctly.
Speaker 2:Ever heart beat, ever heart bent. I can never heat you.
Speaker 1:Hate you, I told you, I'm gonna get out of season.
Speaker 2:What? Because it's gonna make my brain hurt less.
Speaker 3:Yep, I'll stop you when we get to part this super.
Speaker 2:I just love you, baby, Until the day I die. You will be the least love in my life. That's funny, Baby. I don't know what happened that night. I know I messed up out her life together. Oh God, I'm sorry for it all. I can't really remember. Remember what happened that night. Alright, I'm probably just gonna read the way it's supposed to be.
Speaker 1:Well, this is the important shock right here, alright, so I can't really remember what happened that night.
Speaker 2:I'm so sorry you were in jail and I'm sorry if I lied on you.
Speaker 1:He said that ahead of him. I said that. He said I'm so sorry you were in jail and then go ahead and say it.
Speaker 2:No, but I'm sorry if I in quotes lied on you.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh, keep going.
Speaker 2:That just tear me. I seen a lawyer and I told him that I want it to get you off in more than one way. This one's not his fault, this is just a bad photocopy. Smell, smile. Ah, okay, I want it to get you off in more than one way. Got it Wink, wink. Yeah, I love you, get you off. I'll do whatever it takes to get you out of there. Boom.
Speaker 1:Stop. You can stop. You ain't doing it. My friend can't take it. The majority of this letter so far is how much he loves her, how sorry he is that she's in jail, sorry for lying on her Quote, unquote and he will do anything to get her out of there Because he knows how bad it is and it sucks and he'll spend the rest of his life in there, but he'll do whatever it takes to get her out. He can't really remember. He can't really remember. He can't really remember.
Speaker 1:Now, those letters were written before he went to trial back in 2013. Okay, he wrote another one saying kind of stuff, though the exact same stuff how much he loves her. Love of his love, love, love is the bet thing in every bridge I take. So he writes to the sister of Debbie, charlotte, and basically apologizes and says he understands that they all hate him. Who's Shelley? Shelley's his sister. Ah, they've gotten married. At the wedding I got you. They went to where they met. Yeah, he sends these two letters. They don't ever get to Debbie, but even if they had Debbie's done with him, she doesn't need him anymore, right?
Speaker 2:I find it highly amusing that his cursive is actually really nice, mm-hmm. Yeah, really pretty. And his handwriting is not horrible, except for the fact that he can't spell for shit.
Speaker 1:Right, and see, that was where in the first part I was talking about his level of education. I think I did in the second part, but he's got really nice cursive. It's really pretty cursive. So you can tell he went to at least second or grade.
Speaker 2:Yeah, back then.
Speaker 1:Which is what he says. And then you know I've got the other article that said he dropped out in junior high. But you can get all the way to junior high depending on which school you're at. And you know I can understand why he would have left. But at the same time, like I've known people personally that were about to graduate high school and could not spell in their handwriting when it nearly is pretty.
Speaker 2:But the main reason for that is Are we mentioning this other letter to Charlotte?
Speaker 1:What did he say? What did I highlight on that one?
Speaker 2:Well, I actually think the proceed. Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah what's preceding is I'll read what everything is important to you, but it's just to Debbie's sister. I tried myself crazy, trying to remember, but I can't.
Speaker 2:I just don't know what to do. I'm going to try to take all the blame and try to get Debbie off. I don't want her locked up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah so, and at least in this one he's a little bit smarter he says not for something she did not do, yeah, so let's go with that.
Speaker 1:So basically, now they have those two letters from 2013. And then they have Tammy Lemon, who was a cellmate with the information that she could not have got from anyone else or anywhere else because it wasn't widely known and Debbie wouldn't have known if she wasn't there. So these are, all you know, pretty good building blocks, and the forensic pathologist is the other kind of Perry Mason moment in the trial, because, whereas before Bradford get harked up and down so many times over in his closing argument, opening argument about the evidence evidence all points to Lee John. All points to him. There is one other person there that survived and none of the evidence points to her. It all points to him. Well, in Debbie's trial, it now is brought to light by the pathologist that the wounds inflicted to Eileen were most probably inflicted by a person wielding that pocket knife with their left hand. Why is that important, you might ask.
Speaker 2:I don't think anybody's going to ask. I think that's a pretty self-evident.
Speaker 1:It's going to be pretty obvious that Lee John was not left-handed, but there was somebody who was and she has too many initials to list, so I'll just tell you it was Debbie. Debbie was left-handed. Demaulia, and I went back and re-looked over the autopsy when I was told that little tidbit of information and it follows honestly, because I think Kyler and I actually had a conversation about this and about how holding the knife, what direction, and if you were sitting behind someone you know cutting them and you had your right hand dominant, that the wounds would have been more focused on the right side. Now, if you were attacking from the front, I just couldn't see how the amount of power that it took to almost decapitate her from the front angle, it just would have been difficult, especially with a pocket knife. So you would have almost had to have been like holding her over the shoulder with one hand and then attacking with the left hand.
Speaker 2:This is a very sharp pocket knife and it was a decently sized one as well. It was like a four or five inch that we found. And that, with multiple swings, is more than enough to accomplish the same thing.
Speaker 1:Okay, but on the left side that's what I'm saying the pathologist on the stand said it was most probable that it was a left handed attacker from behind and the way the knife wounds occurred and the tracks that they followed, it made more sense if it was a left handed person attacking from behind and you're pulling back, jabbing in and pulling back as hard as you can, okay. Okay, that's the idea that I got. She can wait a stab somebody. Well, if you are watching from beside the shed and realize that he didn't shoot her and you've got the pocket knife from the bedside table, I can kind of see it.
Speaker 2:It's a very rage driven Right Like jumping down like spider monkey and getting at him.
Speaker 1:Right, so rage, resentment filled, right. I can see that Personal die, bitch die. Why wouldn't jujus die when he was trying to shoot you?
Speaker 2:I can see the like, the almost looking like a column.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, very feasible argument in my mind. I just thought it was crazy because they've already got one man in prison for three consecutive licenses for killing these three people that they have technically proved to a jury that found beyond a reasonable doubt that he did. Now they're presenting a case that it was somebody else.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and we mentioned that in the first episode. I don't like it. It rubs me all the wrong ways.
Speaker 1:It rubs me every single wrong way because I understand being a principal to a first-degree murder. You are still just as guilty, but I feel like that is a very specific discrepancy. Like you have to, the distinction has to be there and in this case, debbie and Lee John were both charged with first-degree murder of all three, not principal to all Best reign.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry if y'all can hear that, but that's where my my conscious comes in and is like I don't feel like this is right. So, anyway, the the major like I said, the major parts of that trial were the cellmate snitch, the pathologist who said it was probably a left-handed person, and Lee John actually got on the stand and said I accidentally shot Bozo but Debbie killed her mom and Eileen. However, he was still just as puppy, head over heels in love with her that day on the stand as he was four years ago, and that's the part that blew my mind. Like he didn't get up there. They actually got permission to treat him as a hostile witness.
Speaker 1:He didn't want to testify against her, but he also felt like he couldn't just keep lying for her either because she obviously just didn't love him or want him anymore, because she hadn't written him back and she'd never made contact and she had been out of jail. So she could have and she never did. Those feelings were kind of hurt, but he's still in love with her, still absolutely head over heels in love with her. They did pull out some of the photos of the autopsy and the wounds and he ended up falling into pieces on the stand and you could see he was obviously torn up and I. Actually, when I was speaking to the clerk who was working this trial, she said she never heard that man speak. Lee John, he never said a word, not in his trial. The first word she ever heard him speak were at the trial against Debbie. I thought was crazy.
Speaker 2:Which I think is rather smart.
Speaker 1:Well, no, absolutely. But the demeanor that he has when he's over is such a light switch difference. Oh yeah, it's mind-blowing. It was crazy, drury. Instructions usually take between 45 minutes and an hour, depending on the severity of the case and the charges and all that and how well they're presented to you, right, but no, just the instructions part where the judge is telling them what they have to do, what they have to decide. They can take between 45 minutes and an hour, depending on the options they're dismissed. Lee John took 45 minutes for deliberations. How long do you think the deliberations were for Debbie?
Speaker 2:30.
Speaker 1:Less than 15.
Speaker 2:Damn, I thought you just said that the oh. You're talking about just the deliberations.
Speaker 1:Just the deliberations, less than 15 minutes.
Speaker 2:I was trying to factor in the instructions and all.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, Less than 15 minutes. Unanimously guilty of all three. Yeah, that's great, because this was just in the minutes. They were dismissed for deliberations at 5.18. They came back into session at 5.32. So their actual deliberation was probably closer to 6 or 7. Total yeah, nobody was fooled, nobody believed it and, like, I think the biggest part of all of it was how hard she denied being there at all and then changed it and she swore to God. She swore to God, she swore to God. And I went through that testimony, or that confession, the interview, the first one she did, where she started off. I wasn't there. I left as soon as they got into a fight. Yada, yada, yada took off on it. She has a couple tales. When she's speaking she gets very repetitive, she gets very swear to God-y.
Speaker 1:Black hole drawing almost and then she starts to do the politician ask you the question, and her question was the question Mm-hmm. And you can see an obvious shift in her story and her interview when it starts to become imaginative instead of factual. And that's not hard to pick up on, like our brains automatically pick up on things like that without us actually knowing what we're picking up on. We just know that something's hinty and it's not right. So obviously the story of her and this is my thing, I'm gonna put it out there. This is again speculation station. I think she was there.
Speaker 1:I don't have a strong opinion about whether or not she actually engaged with them or not. I could see her spider-monkey-ing Eileen, I don't know for sure. On Miss Annie Bell, I really don't. I don't think she harbored enough resentment. But I also, if I knew more about the childhood maybe I would be able to make a better decision on that. But that one's a flip of the coin, I don't know. But what I do know is that there was not a single shred of drop of forensically attainable blood on anything of Lee John Not his shoes, not his pants, nothing. And when you violently attack someone with a knife, especially in a situation like Eileen, maybe not so much Annie but Eileen for sure that would have had some kind of transfer, some kind Somewhere somehow, and they found nothing.
Speaker 2:Nothing.
Speaker 1:And Debbie was awful clean for having run up the road and I'm actually going to put this on TikTok, guys, because I want you to see the distances that she went from the house at 975 up to Scott Fields' house up there and how rural just in general. But I've got a video ready and waiting. But she was remarkably clean. She was not wearing any shoes. This is very again rural. They're not blacktop, this is dirt road, rock road and from what I understand she was in her pajamas but it's not real clear. But I also saw in her evidence discovery she wrote a statement to I think it was maybe just her attorney, but she said that the officers let her go back in the house after they cleared the scene, told her to change clothes and then she drove her mother's truck, miss Annie's truck, from the scene to the police station. Now I'm not here to criticize or point out things that people do, but that doesn't seem like normal protocol to me. But in fairness, they didn't have her as a suspect at that point. They had her as a victim and I can understand that. Trying to make this person who's just gone through a really traumatic event, regardless of her, obstructing. They don't think she has anything to do with the actual murder part of it. So let's make her as comfortable as we can. Maybe we'll get more information if we keep her comfy and calm. I can understand that to an extent. It seems like a couple balls were dropped, but I think this was a really good learning experience for the departments on a whole. I know that they changed the procedures for taking pictures at a crime scene. They don't have three or four people do it anymore, they had one person. Dedicated Policy in place because of the storm that brood out of one camera being used by multiple people, then realizing that those multiple people were going to have to decide which picture was taken by which person to be able to testify to taking that picture, because you have to have foundation when you introduce evidence. So lessons learned everybody. This went luckily. It was a very consolidated, very locked room mystery. There wasn't a whole lot of other options. You had a confession right out the gate mostly. So Lee Jung gets up on the stand says he only killed Bozo. Debbie killed the other two. They got her guilty less than seven minutes. She was not happy, not even a little bit.
Speaker 1:We're going to get into the post-conviction, which actually took up way more of the page than the actual trial. So, from the time of the murders on August 20th of 2012 to the time that she was found guilty on August 22nd 2014, two years, two days that's how long that took. So, two years, two days Her post-conviction relief and motions and hearings and filings and appeals went from 2014 until 2021. Seven years of post-conviction shenanigans. That we're actually going to and I hate to do this to you guys, but this is already, with editing, an hour and 20 minutes long. So what we're going to do is break it up into and make it a part four. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, so this way I can get part three out. And what?
Speaker 2:She is.
Speaker 1:I tried my best, I really did. But if I feel like if I put the rest of her post-conviction stuff in here because there's a lot and there's a lot of really good stuff her and Brad get into the DA and it's wonderful, but if I tried to put it all into one episode I would be smooshing it and not giving you guys the full Monty. So I'm going to go ahead and say thank you for listening. Please come back. I'm going to try to get it out, because this one I'm going to go ahead and post this evening. It's Friday evening, the 12th. I'm going to post it tonight about eight o'clock and then I'll do my best because I don't have to work on Monday, martin Luther King Jr Day. So I'm going to do my best to get part four recorded and done and release it on Monday, like a normal episode would be released on Monday, and that way we can just keep on cruising and get back on a normal every other week schedule, because this back to back week stuff is literally killing me. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 1:Hey, there's a couple cool things. Real quick, if you click down there on our name, you can click and it'll take you to our brand new website where we have links for our Patreon Heck, yes, I'm going to give you some, because we have these really cool little what do you call them promos. I guess Not our freebies, but we will send a I named it a commissary package. So if you do $5, just a basic, you get all of the all of the you know Patreon special stuff and then you also will get a little care package that will send to you with some really neat stuff in it. That's the law in nature and a shout out on the next episode. You know all that fun, cool stuff and that would really help us out and show your support that way.
Speaker 1:If you're not into the giving money away to people that you listen to talk about crime, then you can always just leave us a rating, no review or like or subscribe to any of our different social medias and you know the Tiktok YouTube. I'm on Twitter every once in a while and keep up with us. That way. I'm actually going to release some partner stuff on the website as well as on the Tiktok to show the video, because I think it's really important to be able to see the distance that baby talks about running from one house to the other, barefoot and her pajamas, at four o'clock in the morning. So thank you guys again. I appreciate you guys. I love you. Thank you so much. Happy New Year. I'm glad you all are here. I cannot wait to get this year rolling with you guys. Take care out there.
